Interesting experience on the blogs today

I have had an interesting and somewhat disappointing experience. I want to hear what you have to say about it.

By now you know my position on the Zimmerman/Martin case. It can be summarized thus:

    I don’t know if the shooting was justified, but when an armed man initiates contact and then kills an unarmed man, he bears a heavy burden of justification. Maybe Zimmerman will be able to meet that burden, but based on the police station video, it is hard to see how.

I took that argument over to a web site used by black people who range from liberal to openly Marxist. They, of course, disagreed with me and some were angry with me. They were mad that I wouldn’t accept that Zimmerman was a manifest killer who shot an innocent kid dead on the street. They wanted to debate me. Naturally I was called racist. They were disgusted with me, but it was fairly civil.

Then I took the same argument over to one of the big conservative sites. I am not going to name it here, but you have all heard of it. I made the same argument. I actually cut and pasted a lot of it. I was savaged.

They were vicious. The personal attacks were instantaneous. They shredded me like a pitbull shreds a yorkie. They didn’t want to debate at all. They were disgusted that I wouldn’t accept that Zimmerman wasn’t just innocent, he was a hero to be admired. They treated me like I made Michael Moore look conservative. It was relentless, it was not fact based, it was ugly. It was disappointing.

The liberals were better behaved.

We never act like that on the Revo. I am glad. Still, it was an interesting and eye opening experience.

Thoughts?

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31 Responses to Interesting experience on the blogs today

  1. rj says:

    RD, I used to visit and comment a lot on WZ I noticed the comments/ entors started trended to expressing feelings vs debating facts recently, not sure if its due to more liberal conservatives or youngsters or being taken over by trolls

  2. cornbread says:

    Didn’t get to weigh in on the earlier discussion but I would certainly have to agree with your position on the incident.

    Now onto your experience. This is a very polarizing situation. My take on it is this, conservatives are fed the hell up with being everyone’s bitch. They are tired of the media taking any story that pits black against white and making it a conservative caused crime. I think that we are at the breaking point here and it scares me. This is all ruse. This incident happened a month ago but it didn’t become a national news story until right before the SCOTUS was set to here the arguments on Obamacare. Coincidence, I think not. Unfortunately, many have taken the bait and fallen into the trap. If the real story was the crime, we would have seen wall to wall coverage in the media about the young man at Mississippi State University who was murdered on video by three other men.

    All of that being said, I am glad the we have The Revo so that we can discuss such incidents like adults. Unfortunately, that type of debate and discussion has seemingly become passe.

  3. Uke says:

    There are illiterate, uncivilized, impulsive people in the ranks of conservatives, just as in the ranks of liberals. We’re only people, not omniscient gods. We know this, but it’s good to have a reminder occasionally, since we don’t actually see that sort of intolerable behavior here on the Revo.

    The only part of this that really gets me heated is that I have a sneaking suspicion that this story will somehow lead to the roll-back of “stand your ground” gun laws, even though Zimmerman likely wasn’t merely a dude standing his ground against a violent thug.

  4. Expat says:

    I guess the chain mail you have been wearing has worn the sharp edges off the teeth of the TS terriers. They were probably biting as hard as they could. The Conservatives on the other hand …… well we’ve all learned to fear THAT faction. Some of them still believe in God ;-)

  5. R.D. Walker says:

    Ladies and gentlemen, may I introduce Expat: An Englishman living in Grenada with whom I have been sparring for almost a decade.

    He is a good man, just a little confused. :-)

    Welcome to the Revo Expat.

  6. Uke says:

    Hah! Welcome, Expat.

  7. notamobster says:

    You already know the knowledge I’m about to drop.

    Most people are wantonly ignorant, mouth-breathing sheep. They live their lives completely beholden to their baser animal instincts.

    Perfectly content to be led about by the nose, and abandoning all sense and logic when overwhelmed by emotion. This is greatest reason that ‘democracy’ sucks and will always end in abject failure.

  8. Jim22 says:

    My take is that you have taken your usual Spock-like position on this. You are only interested in the facts. This does not endear you to those who only want to deal with it emotionally. I suspect you have encountered this before – many times.

    You need to remember that the vast majority of those who haunt other blogs, left or right, are either young people or people with agendas but without jobs.

    The Revo is a bit different. We, mostly, follow your lead. I, for one, do not take part in some of the experiments that have worked on other blogs. Opinion polls, attempts to write captions for absurd images, etc.. As this blog has progressed those distractions have been tried and discarded because of lack of support.

    We have a unique community here where people can come to try to make sense of the senseless things we see. It’s not for everyone. We can disagree but no one hates anybody for their disagreement. Most of us learn from the other side’s argument.

    When Spock visits children he is often confused. Children are childish. Spock is not.

    Continue to visit other places that may interest you but don’t forget, they are not all adults.

  9. notamobster says:

    We stay happily ensconced in this place of logic, civility, and intellectual integrity and I think it reinforces the false idea that everyone behaves the way we do.

    They don’t.

  10. Lyun says:

    I suppose it comes down to your attitude to your fellow man in general….this is very much like expressing a dislike or need for having gun control in the society.

    The moment you mention anything that suggests even remotely that guns are a cause of problems, there will be a section of society that wants to ream your arse with rusty barbed wire……nothing new in the World.

    It also depends on what the moderators of the web site will differentiate as an argument or a plain old character asassination.

    Usually the weaker the argument the stronger the language.

  11. notamobster says:

    Welcome Expat!

  12. jacksonsdad says:

    IMO it’s not just this particular incident but the general climate. As soon as Dubya became Prez the venom-spewing reached record levels and (but for a temporary 9-11 cease-fire) it’s gotten steadily worse. During those 8 years a lot of things evolved (including a robust blogosphere) and I believe the moonbats were unprepared for the shoe to be on the other foot. Now we’re ready at a moments notice to call them on their hypocrisy and they’ve responded by (big surprise) calling us racists/ sexists/ bigots. As I’ve said here many times “Dems fightin’ words where I come from” so… it looks to me like they have ZERO interest in ‘civility’ and it’s clear from the example set by The One’s rhetoric that nothing is beneath them.

    So… knee-jerk defenses against any and all perceived assaults from the left is perfectly understandable from where I’m sitting. There is no more Good Faith between political rivals, there is only bitterness. They sowed it for 8 years and now they are reaping the monster that they created.

    I am sad and disappointed that we find ourselves here. I fought against it for the first 6 years but when Murtha/Biden/Durbin relentlessly beat that “Civil War In Iraq” drum and the MSM went ‘All In’ exposing their bias I came to realize that they would do or say ANYTHING for political gain… up to and including sacrificing troops in the name of sabotage. That was it for me and I expect a lotta good folks felt the same way.

    So here we are… where objectivity is a lost ideal. The New Media has finally put an end to the one-sided distribution of information and this is what we are left with. Perhaps it will improve when the MSM realizes that their facade is in ruins but I doubt it. They will double-down as they always do and blame everyone but themselves and the fight will rage on.

    In a ‘guilty pleasure’ kinda way I’m glad that we are now erring on the side of offense. It’s a natural progression given the BS we’ve been forced to endure for so long. I know it’s a disappointment for The Spock in us all but… I’m reminded of these wise words which succinctly summarize what may be the inevitable result of these turbulent times…

    Embrace The Suck.

  13. R.D. Walker says:

    Jim: Brad is always telling me that my Spock-like empiricism pisses people off. For the life of me, I can’t see why. I know it leads me off the conservative reservation from time to time but I don’t think empiricism based on our foundational values is ever too far off.

    I try really hard to remain true to our core values of freedom and individual liberty and not be an ideologue.

    For example, I support castle laws and so forth. On the other hand, a law that allows me to go annoy you, antagonize you, pick at you until I push you to fight me and then allows me to shoot you dead in “self defense” when you start kicking my ass needs tweaking.

    That seems obvious to me because the ability to goad someone that way is out of line with what we stand for. The rest can’t be good by definition.

    So I look at the Zimmerman case it seems what happened there is akin to that: Zimmerman bugged Martin and Martin responded with violence. All they told me on the conservative site is “THAT’S NOT WHAT HAPPENED ASSHOLE!!!!!” Obviously I pissed them off and they weren’t interested in hearing my reasoning.

    You know, a colleague I have known for 25 years told me today I am a lot like Sheldon Cooper from The Big Bang Theory. Maybe I am.

  14. Jim22 says:

    I’m glad you singled me out, RD. I will stand by at least two things I wrote above.

    First, logical people are that way because they want the truth. Emotional people are that way because they want their way. For Spock to attempt to engage the emotional in a discussion ALWAYS reduces them to one technique – attack. That’s what you encountered.

    Second, Spock will always be taken aback when his logic is attacked with emotion. He does not expect that kind of childish behavior. But there are more of them than there are Spocks. Brad is very observant and his warning that “Spock-like empiricism pisses people off.” is correct. He may be unable to put it into words without a pro-wrestling reference but he’s right about a lot of things – and you know it.

  15. Ventucky Local says:

    The real America (outside the RVO) is actaully VERY polarized. Conservative backlash is pretty nasty at times and getting nastier by the minute. I would agree wholheartedly with Jim22 that we follow your lead RD and thus there is a level of civility and decorum that just does not occur much of anywhere else. Most of want facts not feelings to make decisions with.

  16. James says:

    I reach independent conclusions based on logic and evidence, and have learned to keep my mouth shut.
    People don’t want to hear it. They get angry.

    A recent example is my general anesthetic experience, that led me to the logical conclusion there is no afterlife. My dad got angry, my anesthesiologist friend got angry, told me I didn’t know what no one could possibly know. My sister spewed out nonsense. A life after death website treated me like a child.

    People simply do not want to hear/ reject conclusions with evidence that violate/disprove their way of thinking or beliefs.

  17. W. C. Taqiyya says:

    For me, the salient facts are that the watch captain was on patrol and called in a suspicious person. The watch captain was a short time later jumped by that suspicious person and suffered a broken nose and other injuries. The watch captain shot the suspicious person. It doesn’t matter whether the watch captain followed the suspicious person, he was on patrol and doing his job. It doesn’t matter if the watch captain yelled at the suspicious person. Yelling or following does not justify violence. What matters is who initiated the physical attack. All available evidence indicates strongly that the suspicious person initiated the attack. Thus, he is responsible for the unintended consequences of his attack. Question. Who would allow themselves to be beaten unconscious, have their gun stolen and maybe used to kill you instead of using the gun to protect yourself? Right. All the other details are just fluff.

  18. John Cox says:

    First, I’d like to that my experience, though a newcomer, has been a respectful, entertaining, and intellectually stimulating one. The Revo is my first read of the day. Thank you all.

    I don’t know if the shooting was justified, but when an armed man initiates contact and then kills an unarmed man, he bears a heavy burden of justification.

    With this I completely agree. However, I don’t see the police video to be conclusive one way or the other. I’m not leaning publicly one way or the other until all of the evidence is made available. Is there dashcam video? Did investigators take closeup photos of the injuries? What is the testimony of the paramedics on scene that treated Zimmerman?

    What is troubling though, is the black leaders like Sharpton and Jackson that are fanning the flames of racism that could result further violence or tragedy.

  19. R.D. Walker says:

    We have a good group here and we try to keep things civil. We even treat our trolls well if they don’t get too mouthy. The reality is that there are many issues in which reasonable people can take different positions without either having a handle lock on some kind of metaphysical truth.

    The only time I get offended here is when I am chastised for lacking conservative purity when I have made a logically defensible argument.

    For example, I think that Martin had as much right to stand-his-ground as did Zimmerman. Therefore, the guilt and innocence in the case depends on who attacked who. By being armed and shooting an unarmed man, Zimmerman faces an enhanced burden.

    Over at the conservative site I was called race-baiting asshole moonbat communist piece of shit or the near equivalent for making that argument. Nice, huh?

    What the hell is the point of a fluking blog if everybody is just going to say the same crap back and forth to one and other? That just creates a stupid, boring echo chamber.

  20. Lyun says:

    If the “facts” of the incident are as W.C Taqiyya stated in his post, and Zimmerman suffered a broken nose in the encounter, I would have to say had I been Zimmerman, then before Martins could have laid a finger on me I’d have put a big hole in him.

    The sole purpose of carrying a gun is for self preservation, and in the presence of real and imminent danger the natural reaction is self defence.

    Who in their right mind waits for someone to hit them and then expects to be in good shape to retaliate defensively…..you could be incapacitated and rendered terminall by even a single fist blow to the head.

    If there had been no actual body damage to Zimmerman, it would then have to be weighed against the potential for Martins to injure him badly if he made his play, which would be a potential aggressive act followed by an over zealous defensive one….lucky for Zimmerman as it turned out he was still capable of defense even though he so say suffered an injury in the first few seconds of the encounter.

    Did Martins see the gun aimed at him and still proceeded to attack?

    It would seem unlikely.

    Having attacked Zimmerman and injuring him, Martins could possibly not have been aware that a gun was present, and it subsequently deployed to nullify further aggression against a person whom he considered pacified.

    A blow to the face, that is strong enough to break your nose, is enough to stun you temporarily, and a natural reaction would be a defensive mode, either by a hand retaliation or using the weapon you carry, even a walking stick, a rolled up news paper, umbreller or a pocket knife, but in this case a gun.

    If the gun was being brandished at first encounter and Martins ignored the the threat, he was a fool, but Zimmerman was stupid in deploying his weapon and allowing Martins to approach so close as to do him bodily injury.

    where is the conclusive evidence of attack and defense without assumption?

  21. Uke says:

    What the hell is the point of a fluking blog if everybody is just going to say the same crap back and forth to one and other? That just creates a stupid, boring echo chamber. –@RD

    This is precisely the problem with most of the MSM, and how they got so mind-bogglingly retarded. The execs had a political ideology that they propagated down through the ranks. At the end of the day, they could only hear the sounds of their own compliments and adulation.

    When they actually DID hear an opposing argument, they were unprepared for it, had no idea how to argue it. So they went back to their desks, bewildered. But they were soon comforted and consoled by a newsroom full of people that told them to discount that opposing viewpoint, since they were crazy/racist/stupid/etc.

    We can’t be that way. We aren’t that way. And what’s more, as long as we continue to feed off of logic and reason, we can’t possibly become that way.

    Because truth has no ideology.

  22. Lyun says:

    Zimmerman is qite a beefy bloke, whilst Martins is a 17 year old skinny kid……does he (Martins) normally get this aggressive when challenged on a dark night by anyone?

    He might have(had) a Coke habit that scrambled his reasoming ability.

  23. Xavier says:

    I’ve been lurking here a bit daily but usually hang at WZ. The Zimmerman incident seems to bring out the knee-jerk, well, jerks. One thing I noticed at WZ was at the onset of the story a lot of the people I consider intellectual heavy hitters held back; now that more details are coming out there’s a more balanced conversation although you can always find a fringer here and there. The big blogs seem to attract a lot of weirdos and I generally try to stay away – what’s the point? But I will confess to trolling them just a little bit to get a reaction when the crazies are out in full force.

    I strongly agree with your comment about the echo chamber – disagreement is healthy, and trolls who are civil should be tolerated. (well, most of the time)

    Anyway, I’ve been meaning to compliment you folks on the blog; I linked to some posts a couple weeks ago and several folks commented on how interesting your site is. The Survival Tips area is great too and I’m getting ready to order a couple of those ceramic water filters.

    And just for the record, my opinion is that if the accounts we’re reading are correct, Martin crossed the line when the confrontation became physical. I don’t give a damn about the “he was being hunted like a dog” reasoning; a neighborhood watch person has a responsibility to check people out. I’m not calling Zimmerman a hero, and new facts may change my position. But for now, I’m saying it looks like real bad judgement by a 17 year old who thought he was a badass.

    Cheers and see y’all again soon.

  24. J.Willy says:

    R.D., I think we can all agree that a deeper investigation will bring out some facts that could change a lot of things. I just want to say that I appreciate your perspective on this. To me this is the most fact based unbiased blog out there and I really appreciate having the Real Revo as the best possible place to get informed.

  25. Slaphappypap says:

    The Media is putting gasoline on this whole mess. Soledad O’Brian from CNN is holding a special on Race in America. Again. This has been done before and again and again. It’s sad that executives will go to this level for ratings. The Black Panther Party wants coverage. CNN gives it to them. Al Sharpton has something to say, MSNBC has to bend over backwards for him. Conservatives are attacking hard because of the anti-gun lobby is pushing forward again. I’m still going to wait see what happened with witnesses and what Zimmerman does. In the long run, the wick has been set and more people I foresee will be hurt. All during a election year.

    On Purpose. All while my city destroys itself. Sad. Just Sad.

  26. notamobster says:

    Xavier: Welcome to the public side of The Real Revo!

  27. messup says:

    This is a sad situation. Two individuals had an altercation in a community dealing with many of society’s ills, only to have one accused as a murderer and a deceased adolescent as an innocent victim..

    Trying this incident in public opinion and not a court of law, merely leads to inconclusive, frustratingly divisive accusations and no finality…wounds will be opened, and healing won’t happen.

    The alleged perpetrator is innocent until proven guilty in a court of law. The deceased victim must have his actions fully examined in order to arrive at conclusive judicial decision of guilt or innocence.

    Was the deceased victim a gang member? Twitter accounts (until they were “scrubbed”) indicate, yes. One account registered to the deceased titled “NO_LIMIT_NIGGA.” Another, now removed had “MADE_NIGGA.” This last, would indicate one having been “jumped in” to a local gang, having passed thru a series of related steps towards full award of acceptance.

    What do street gangs do for revenue, and power? Mostly petty theft, drugs, drug dealing, and extortion.

    The deceased seems to have had many such “contacts” on his Twitter account (since then, “scrubbed” and reposted)indicating active drug dealing activities.

    A complete investigation into this sad episode is necessary to clear up any and all legal and illegal activites either individual was responsible for. May Trayvon’s soul rest in peace. Amen.

  28. BaconNeggs says:

    RD like you and others here, I also visit “Conservative” forums out there, and most forums have a hard core of posters/enforcers who act to channel opinion in the direction they consider correct for their forum, and hey, thats their right.

    But open debate?
    My ass!

    One of the refreshing thing about the REVO, as much as I respect RD or MadBrad, Nota, LnL, Uke, Jim, A-brat, etc, I have no fear about putting forth a counter argument against any and all, and then being personally attacked for it. The REVO demonstrate people can disagree passionately without the need to personally insult an individual.

    During Hurricane Katrina in N.O, this same issue of security and “Gated Communites” came up when nieghbourhood watch/vigilantes set up no go areas to prevent black people fleeing the flood waters from passing through their mainly white neighbourhoods.

    Now there is good reasons why the local resident blocked outsiders,
    but humanity and compassion during a hurricane for their fellow man, came way down the list.

    Some of the accounts I read on “Conservative” forums then as I now read with the current Zimmerman-Martin incident, have brought back those memories of the same casual lack of concern by these “God fearing Conservative” bloggers who quite clearly consider blacks lesser beings.

    I might make an ass of myself here on occasion, but at least I have the strenght of conviction to come to my own opinions without following RD or anyone else, and to argue the merit as I see fit, without being personally attacked and insulted.

    So yes, I have to agree, many of those “Conservatives” are as bad as those who call someone an Asshole/Stupid/Uncle Tom/Liberal/Racist/Redneck, etc, if they dont follow the herd mentality, and tow the line of their self appointed “leaders”.

    Anyhoo, welcome to the “newbies” and lurkers, you are in good company.

  29. R.D. Walker says:

    I used to want this blog to grow fast and large. I don’t think I want that anymore. When a blog is getting a hundred comments a minute, anything you say gets lost, there is no real discussion, people feel the need to shout angrily to be heard and the whole environment degrades.

    We are getting about 3,500 visitors a day right now. That seems pretty decent.

  30. RJ says:

    Hey RD when you were 20ish did you you ever even consider you would reach out across the country and world with your work and have 3500 people a day interested enough to take a look at what you were doing?

  31. R.D. Walker says:

    It is amazing what we take for granted today, isn’t it?

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