Obama: “America is poised to take off.”

If all else fails, go with delusion.

In an interview with Bloomberg’s Julianna Goldman, President Barack Obama stated, “I think America is poised to take off.” The main obstacle, in Obama’s mind, however, is political dysfunction.

“We’re seeing pretty strong consumer confidence, despite weaknesses in Europe and even in Asia. I think America is poised to take off. And the question is, let’s make sure that we don’t have a self-inflicted wound, because there are a lot of silly games played up on Capitol Hill,” Obama told Goldman.

Bookmark the permalink.

56 Responses to Obama: “America is poised to take off.”

  1. EastBayLarry says:

    When the Won talks about ‘taking off’ I get visions of Thelma & Louise {shudders}

  2. notamobster says:

    Ever the deluded imbecile, Barry’s playing the old axiom “when you hit rock bottom, there’s no place to go but up”.

    Sadly, he’s even wrong about this. We’re nowhere near rock bottom.

  3. R.D. Walker says:

    Obama talks about economics the way chicks talk about auto mechanics.

  4. Judd says:

    I’m curious what you all think about the current growth of the economy and strength in the housing market. And (I know it’s just a lame talking point at this stage in the game) the fact that the economy was collapsing due to an economic crisis that existed before Obama took office…

    There seems to be a partisan divide that keeps people from recognizing that the main problem in this nation (the debt) wasn’t created by Barack Obama. He has contributed significantly to it, yes, but it’s not like he’s able to magically correct the rampant spending that has exponentially increased since the late eighties. The problems with this current economy can be equally attributed to Reagan, H.W. Bush, Clinton, G.W. Bush, and now Barack Obama, even though at this point it’s going to take some serious nut-crunching work to bring this train under control after 30 years of insane borrowing. It’s time people realized that.

  5. R.D. Walker says:

    Top ten other things poised to take off:

      1. New Coke
      2. Enron
      3. The Hindenberg
      4. BetaMax
      5. Yugoslavia
      6. The Maginot Line
      7. Roller Disco
      8. The Holy Roman Empire
      9. Woolworth’s
      10. The Captain and Tennille
  6. Bman says:

    You forgot the TV hit “Cop Rock”

  7. R.D. Walker says:

    Judd: The Community Reinvestment Act or CRA was signed into law by Jimmy Carter in 1977 to encourage banks to lend money to people they would not otherwise consider for a loan. By in the first 20 years until 1997, the CRA had commitments totaling $200 billion. In the following 10 years those commitments had exploded to $4.2 trillion of loans that no bank would make without the backing and demands of the government.

    The CRA forced banks to make trillions in loans to individuals who have poor credit and who often can’t or won’t make their payments. Hundreds of billions of those loans defaulted in 2008 leading to the housing meltdown and the current recession.

    Every step of the way Barack Obama didn’t only support the CRA, he agitated for it, he demanded that its scope be expanded, he sued on behalf of it and his community organizing was based on it. He bears absolute moral responsibility for it and, therefore, the crash.

    He spending since the crash has been twice the rate of Bush. During the campaign he said he would cut the annual deficit in half during his first term. Instead, he doubled it.

  8. R.D. Walker says:

    There is no strength in the economy. Economic uncertainty is increasing. Businesses are becoming very cautious as they wait for rule making for Obamacare and other federal programs. Investments are stalled. Business plans have been put on hold. Hiring is frozen. The economy will remain destabilized.

    When government provides a stable environment over a long-term planning period it instills the confidence investors and entrepreneurs. The result is economic growth, wealth creation and job creation. The opposite is also true. A government that destabilizes the business environment by making constant changes, imposing thousands of new regulations, experiments with economic policy and demands transformative change chills investment, stunts growth and stymies job creation. The Obama Administration is a textbook study in economic destabilization and the result will likely be a slide back into recession. People still working will soon be lining up for the dole.

    Complex and costly new regulations, skyrocketing prices, a chilled business environment, tight money and growing joblessness. Maybe, just maybe, at the end of the next four years of horror, people will, once again, look to policies promoting free markets and free minds for America.

  9. Trent says:

    Other things ready to take off:

    1: HD DVD
    2: Obama’s college records
    3: Pelosi’s face lift
    4: Solyndra
    5: The Magic Hour (Magic Johnson’s show)
    6: My blood pressure

    Wait, that last one is true…

  10. Bman says:

    I almost forgot- Bob and Doug McKenzie. They are poised to take off, you hoser.

  11. James says:

    “if we can fix some of this political dysfunction.”

    means transferring congressional power to the executive branch.

  12. Judd says:

    Your point is well taken, and there is some truth to it. Radical changes can cause a vast amount of uncertainty in the economy, and this was probably the least stable time to implement a universal healthcare program.

    You lead off with “there is no strength in the economy” but current economic figures seem to suggest otherwise. It may not be much strength but the private sector is growing. That is irrefutable. Part of the uncertainty has a lot to do with the current negotiations over the so-called fiscal cliff. People won’t invest if they have no idea what is about to happen. This has caused a massive nationwide freakout, and both parties are to blame for it. If taxes go up, it will slow the economy. If taxes stay the same and entitlements get cut, there will be little recourse for the tens of millions of adults who are currently relying on government help (in some form or another) and that will stymie further growth.

    If anything we’d be better off with a cautious care-taker style of government right now, and let things continue to stabilize before trying to tackle the debt (which as a ratio to GDP is still not yet a truly dire problem).

    How did we get out of the great depression? The New Deal. New regulations and spending and mortgage bailouts. Except in FDR’s days, no one tried to filibuster everything he did, and the country recovered. Not to sound too one-sided on that front, but it suits my bias, and I’m happy to hear anything you might have to say about it.

    I may assert a lot of things that I believe to be true, but I am open minded and interested in perspective.

  13. R.D. Walker says:

    “It may not be much strength but the private sector is growing.”

    If your measure is GDP and you are talking private sector, you have to back government spending out of GDP. When you do that, the growth of GDP has been barely over population growth and there are indications it is slowing. I expect it to be negative and, therefore, recessionary by the end of the first quarter 2013.

    There are 4 million fewer Americans working today than when Obama took office. That is irrefutable.

    “How did we get out of the great depression? The New Deal. New regulations and spending and mortgage bailouts.”

    Hardly. We stayed in the Great Depression until about 1946. It was hidden during the war by rationing and forced employment in the form of military service. People couldn’t get the goods and services they wanted and they were forced under color of law to do jobs they didn’t want to do. Same depression but with patriotic reasons for lower standards of living.

    What ended the Great Depression for the United States was the almost complete destruction of the industrial capacity of Europe and Asia while America remained unscathed. When you are the only game in town, business is good.

    Frankly, there is tons of evidence that FDR’s attempts at Keynesian “remedies” lengthened and deepened the Great Depression. In fact, five years after FDR took office, the Great Depression worsened in 1937. Expect a repeat performance in 2013.

  14. R.D. Walker says:

    Government spending in GDP skews the ability of GDP to measure economic health. A successful economy provides goods and services that serve demand and have utility to the population. Government is notoriously bad at delivering reasonable utility per dollar spent.

    Whatever the case, GDP that included government spending doesn’t tell us much about the health of the economy. The government could order the Grand Canyon filled with green Jello and it would have an tremendously positive effect on GDP. If the government also ordered the Great Lakes covered with ping pong balls a foot deep, GDP would skyrocket.

    The thing is, it wouldn’t do much to serve demand and provide utility so the wealth creation would be minimal.

    A lot of government spending today doesn’t serve demand or provide utility much better than would my Jello and Ping Pong Ball Plan.

  15. Bman says:

    The Soviet Union had a strong GDP.

  16. TN-Cat says:

    At what ratio of debt to GDP is considered dire Judd?

    Please give a percentage that you would start worrying.

  17. James says:

    Roosevelt croaking ended The Great Depression. The other reason is as R.D. says above is US industry intact.

    The Great Depression didn’t end until the 1970s. That’s when debt levels were restored as a % of GDP to 1930s levels. WWII and Roosevelt’s social programs caused the debt.

    http://www.usgovernmentspending.com/federal_debt_chart.html

  18. Frank in Texas says:

    Top 10 things ready to take off.

    1. The Titanic
    2. San Bernadino
    3. The Edsel
    4. Vanilla Ice
    5. Repeal of Obamacare
    6. Sensitivity Training at IRS
    7. Jim Jones Gatorade
    8. SpongeBob OctagonPants
    9. Michael Vick The Dog Whisperer
    10.French Victory Medals

    According to this list America has a 1 in a (what comes after a trillion) chance of taking off.

    Fasten your seat belts the landing is gonna be much worse than the takeoff.

  19. TN-Cat says:

    Am I the only one still predicting the Laser Disk player is going to take off?

    The only movie I have been able to watch for 28 years so far is Roger Rabbit.

  20. Trent says:

    Frank,
    Number 9 made me laugh pretty good. I just had a though of someone pitching that in a meeting as good TV.

  21. R.D. Walker says:

    “How did we get out of the great depression? The New Deal. New regulations and spending and mortgage bailouts.”

    Putting regulations on businesses helps them expand operations and grow? Of course not. Regulations provide economic friction and reduce productivity. You can’t increase productivity with regulations. It is absurd on its face.

    Government spending also doesn’t create much wealth. Why? Because in order for the government to spend, it has to take either in the form of taxes or in debt. In either case, money taken from the citizenry to buy things they didn’t ask for prevents them from using the same money to buy things for which they do have demand and which would provide utility. When you tax me so much I can’t buy a new car and then use it on some government boondoggle, it is a net loss for the economy.

    If mortgage bailouts helped the economy the government could just pay off the mortgages of every homeowner in America and we would all be on easy street. It doesn’t work that way in real life. In order to pay off a mortgage, you need to take something away from someone else. With the friction involved, there is a net loss to the economy. Furthermore, you would undermine and destroy any sense of entrepreneurialism, industry, thrift, investment and delayed gratification.

    If the world worked the way you seem to think it does, the government could print $310 trillion in currency and give every man, woman and child in America a check for a million dollars and everyone would be rich.

    Again, it doesn’t work that way.

  22. Bman says:

    Top 10 things continued

    1. Bud Ice
    2. Bud Dry
    3. Reeser’s Tortillas plant, Nome, Alaska
    4. John Travolta & Olivia Newton-John Christmas Album

  23. rj says:

    RD you make the big picture so clear, I appreciate the education each and every time …

  24. jacksonsdad says:

    Admittedly I only skimmed the comments but I saw the CRA and didn’t see a mention of ACORN. They were instrumental in the propagation of the CRA…

    http://tinyurl.com/ajcso3t

    From the article…

    “At first, ACORN’s anti-bank actions were relatively few in number. However, under a provision of the 1989 savings and loan bailout pushed by liberal Democratic legislators, like Massachusetts Congressman Joseph P. Kennedy, lenders were required to compile public records of mortgage applicants by race, gender, and income. Although the statistics produced by these studies were presented in highly misleading ways, groups like ACORN were able to use them to embarrass banks into lowering credit standards. At the same time, a wave of banking mergers in the early 1990’s provided an opening for ACORN to use CRA to force lending changes. Any merger could be blocked under CRA, and once ACORN began systematically filing protests over minority lending, a formerly toothless set of regulations began to bite.”

  25. R.D. Walker says:

    Milli Vanilli
    The Ottoman Empire
    Flagpole Sitting
    James at 15
    Crystal Pepsi
    Sandusky’s Second Mile Program
    Zoot Suits
    Person-to-person calls
    The Space Shuttle
    CompuServe

  26. TN-Cat says:

    Recovery Summer part 1
    Recovery Summer part 2

  27. jacksonsdad says:

    Transparency
    Gitmo No Longer Being Used As A Recruiting Tool For Terrorists

  28. jacksonsdad says:

    A Balanced Approach
    Bipartisanship
    Putting Politics Aside

  29. notamobster says:


    If taxes stay the same and entitlements get cut, there will be little recourse for the tens of millions of adults who are currently relying on government help (in some form or another) and that will stymie further growth.

    Entitlement spending doesn’t spur growth. Breaking Windows is Not Stimulating


    If anything we’d be better off with a cautious care-taker style of government right now, and let things continue to stabilize before trying to tackle the debt (which as a ratio to GDP is still not yet a truly dire problem).


    I don’t want the government to be my caretaker. I want my government to do that which it is authorized to do. It has specific, enumerated powers and should do nothing more.

    Do you honestly believe that debt at 100%+ of GDP with NO PLANS WHATSOEVER to stop increasing it – is not a dire situation? You seem too intelligent to believe that.

  30. Greg B says:

    “James at 15″
    Ha ha! I can’t believe anyone even remembers that show.

    On a serious note, after the Great Depression, Americans WANTED to work.
    Now, a insanely large percentage of the population DON’T. Even if there were jobs to be had, there are just too many leeches now.

  31. R.D. Walker says:

    It really went downhill when it became James at 16.

  32. notamobster says:

    1) The Kirstie Ally Diet Plan
    2) The Dr Kevorkian Long Life Elixir
    3) The OJ Simpson Hunting Knife & Glove set
    4) The Sandusky-Jackson Children’s Home
    5) The Inter-faith Islamic Institute for Peace & Tolerance
    6) Prohibition
    7) The War on Drugs
    8) The War on Poverty
    9) The John Roberts School of Jurisprudence & Constitutional Conservatism
    10) Santa Clause, The Easter Bunny, a non-gay Tom Cruise, 2012 Doomsday, and everything else that has absolutely 0% chance of happening anytime soon.

  33. RJM says:

    The only thing that is poised to take off is the national debt and taxes.

  34. RJM says:

    Right along with his statement “The private sector is doing fine!”

  35. Bman says:

    Nota- Santa Clause is real. Don’t get me started on Santa.

  36. slinger says:

    Nota, I’m going to LMAO on 22 December when you find out that the Mayans were RIGHT :-)

  37. Bman says:

    I want to buy a new Ford Exploder…well, newer anyway than the 1994 version that I currently own. I’m hoping prices will dramaticaly drop after December 22nd. Im holding out until after that date.

  38. Uke says:

    Judd sounds intelligent, if misinformed. I hope he/she sticks around.

    By far one of the more pleasant leftists we’ve dealt with here.

  39. Bman says:

    I don’t think he/she is all that leftist. Judd can easily be shown the light. Im basing my theory on other comments he/she made.

  40. BaconNeggs says:

    RD thank you for your brief, polite and illuminating analysis of the history of the US economy, its good to be reminded of the facts despite the pervasive fantasy.

    As you correctly pointed out the Government cannot create wealth but instead take from those who do create real wealth.

    In my simplistic mind I tend to view it as two brands of beer, one Government the other Private.

    Private beer is made from scratch with real ingredients to fulfill real thirst and real demand. Government beer is made from confiscating (taxing) real beer that has been made by Private beer and watering it down (devaluation) with things like QE2 to stretch it out and redistribute to those it consider deserving beer. Pretty soon government beer ends up so watered down its almost undrinkable.

    Government excessive spending, Government excessive debt and lack of real economic growth are not good ingredients for nice tasting economic beer.

    I wont go over the excellent points already made but if Judd is serious about Government spending and where the US economy is currently heading, look to the EU and the mess they are in.

    Here is an excellent PDF Testimony Before the House Committee on TARP at the link,…What the Euro Crisis Means for Taxpayers and the U.S. Economy. Its two years old but relevant more than ever.

    http://mercatus.org/publication/what-euro-crisis-means-taxpayers-and-us-economy

  41. locke n load says:

    Can’t believe I missed out on the thread, damned job, grrrr.
    As for Judd.. same advice I give any other dissenter who has the cajones to spur an honest debate: if you have a presumption refuted, don’t ever rely on it again, the point is settled. If you disagree with the point being settled, fine, debate more, but once settled, don’t keep going back to it.

    Talking points (which were almost the entirety of Judd’s argument) are simply shortcuts for rational thought. Having the balls to honestly question them is the first step to breaking the cycle of ignorance. Actually absorbing the answers and refutations of the lies is more important tho.

    I’ve seen Judd in here before, he’s a regular lurker and he’s stuck around. If you’re listening Judd, jump back in. This isn’t hostile territory. We may be combative at times but we love intellectually honest minds. Just keep in mind what I said above. If you want to get into HOW all your presumptions have been spoon fed to you, I’m not game. But we will absolutely show you how they are mistaken and walk you logically, factually, and in as much detail as you need, back into the cold clear light of facts.

  42. BaconNeggs says:

    I forgot to mention in my beer scenario above, in order to be popular, Obama has a habit of walking into the bar and shouting “drinks are on the house” and demanding other patrons empty their pockets or savings to pay for his drinks. Nice guy!

  43. locke n load says:

    B&E, thats not at all a bad way of explaining it :) well done

  44. Greg says:

    FORWARD COMRADES!!

  45. locke n load says:

    Comrades? lol
    Spoke to an ex-soviet immigrant the other day, one who was born right before the fall of the USSR. he STILL doesn’t believe the Ukraine was starved, STILL doesn’t know about the 20+ million killed by Stalin et al in their purges.

    Swore I was full of shit, delusional. When confronted with the names of the AMerican press that did the Soviets bidding, the Pulitzers given to them, and the volumes written detailing the bloody rampage…nothing. Never heard of the Venona papers either (although many of you might not have either)

    And much like Judd, when finally confronted with all the contrary evidence to his long held teachings he fell back on the last resuge of the argumentively cornered: relativism.
    In his words, after all, America wasn’t really any better, we were just as to blame.

    *sigh*

  46. RJ says:

    other taking off things.

    Mood rings
    Pet rocks
    The Leaping Lizzards (music group)

    That is all.

  47. Judd says:

    Maybe I have caused this thing to go horribly off topic and there is a better place to continue this. If so, let me know, I am in fact new here, and have not been “lurking.” Maybe that was another Judd.

    “Hundreds of billions of [CRA] loans defaulted in 2008 leading to the housing meltdown and the current recession.”

    I have been under the impression that the bottom fell out of the market because of bad bets made by Wallstreet. I think it has been relatively well documented. This is purely conjecture at this point, but the way I understand it is that, simply put, an increasingly lax attitude on regulations of banks and Wallstreet made it possible to start packaging and betting on mortgage backed securities, CDOs and derivatives that badly destabilized the inherent value in the housing market. I can imagine how the CRA helped to create the bubble, but I believe the lack of regulation was enabling a hand-full of people to make unnecessarily risky investments that caused the market to collapse.

    “free markets and free minds for America.”

    It is also my understanding that while free trade enables companies to expand quickly and make better profits by outsourcing, it doesn’t have a lasting effect on job creation and wealth in the United States, not to mention the exploitation of workers in other countries where we don’t actually have to provide a real living wage or safe working conditions (e.g. deadly warehouse fire in Bangladesh that killed several Wal-Mart workers.)

    I suppose you could say I disagree with a lot of free trade practices on moral grounds, and maybe only half-smart economic ideas, but I think we need better manufacturing jobs in this country and tariffs on imports to incentivize domestic production.

    “At what ratio of debt to GDP is considered dire Judd?”

    Okay so maybe that was a little brazen of me, but Japan’s ratio is 200% and we’re not seeing them fall off the face of the earth. It’s poor anecdotal evidence, I know, and I realize our own debt to GDP ratio could easily be 200% in 10 years, which is an uneasy prospect. I will consider it dire when we see what Greece is seeing at this point in time. To me, what is happening in Europe seems to be a significant indicator that austerity isn’t the best recipe for success.

    As a side note, there are a lot of financial leaders who were handling the European crisis who have been replaced with people who were in high positions with Goldman Sachs, and I think that’s another thing to look into but some might call that tin-foil hat territory.

    R.D,

    Admittedly, I have only been a political junkie for the past couple of years now, and have indeed been getting most of my news from liberal sources. I have been aware of the fact that there are large gaps in the history that is being regurgitated to serve a particular bias, and that is partly the reason I am airing my opinion, with so much hubris, on this site. If I am right, then I have learned nothing, but if a few thoughtful people have any inclination to educate me on certain things well, I consider that to be even more of a benefit. I have been forced to double check a good amount of my own research as well as a number of the things asserted in this thread and I find it all good.

    “Whatever the case, GDP that included government spending doesn’t tell us much about the health of the economy. The government could order the Grand Canyon filled with green Jello and it would have an tremendously positive effect on GDP. If the government also ordered the Great Lakes covered with ping pong balls a foot deep, GDP would skyrocket.”

    When I read that I laughed out loud. I had never thought about it those terms and it struck me as blatantly accurate and funny. It’s a good point. But there is something to be said about the intrinsic market value of that jello and the ping pong balls. It inflates GDP sure, but it also creates jobs which generates purchasing power in the United States, and that stimulates growth, yes? The grand canyon jello-worker has money and now he wants to SPEND it, by God, and now people can profit from meeting his demand for product!…or is that a classic Keynesian fallacy?

    “Putting regulations on businesses helps them expand operations and grow? Of course not. Regulations provide economic friction and reduce productivity. You can’t increase productivity with regulations. It is absurd on its face.”

    I assure you I wasn’t trying to assert that, but I can see how the context made it seem that way. It was stupid to mention regulations there. But…regulations, which I think should be called “protections,” seem to emerge from instances of gross negligence in our country’s history. They are so blatant, that it would be a waste of all of our time for me to start listing them all here. Yes, they can be wasteful, and can fetter industry, but would you send your son of to work for a mining company that could in no way be held responsible for cave-ins and explosions? Would you let Shell frac for natural gas in your back yard if they didn’t have to guarantee they wouldn’t poison your land with (proven) toxic fracturing chemicals? There is a need for these things. And there is a need to reform them, but I won’t pretend I know how to do that.

    “If the world worked the way you seem to think it does, the government could print $310 trillion in currency and give every man, woman and child in America a check for a million dollars and everyone would be rich.”

    I hope my viewpoint didn’t come off as that simplistic. I haven’t really been around that long, but I think that saving GM was good for the economy, and I think anyone would be hard-pressed to deny that, but yes, maybe you think it sets a bad precedent. Then again, Bush did enact TARP, right? Apples and Oranges maybe? Just throwing stuff to see what sticks at this point, and genuinely curious in all responses. Even though this has become hopelessly long winded and I’m sorry for that.

    “Entitlement spending doesn’t spur growth. Breaking Windows is Not Stimulating”

    I never meant to imply that it spurs growth, but I will say, I think that if you cut everyone off in a horrible job market, then spending would drastically decline, which would, I think, be detrimental to a fragile recovery.

    And I don’t want a government to be my “care-taker,” per se, but it has evolved into that over the past 200 years in an attempt to eliminate injustices and ensure a level playing field for most people, and it took until the 1960s to get as close as we’ve come today. And it’s still a struggle (which, if you think about it, has many other facets beyond human rights to boot.)

    I’m not blindly steadfast in my conviction that Keynesian economics is the proven way. And neither is Supply-side theory. Any half-smart economist will tell you that neither has been proven to work, as a rule, in any strict application. Whoops. More hubristic assertions. Oh well. This I feel has gotten horribly out of hand, but I look forward to further conversation. If there’s a way and will to take this somewhere else, let us. Otherwise, I’m content to exacerbate the bloat of this thread.

    Selah.

  48. R.D. Walker says:

    “I have been under the impression that the bottom fell out of the market because of bad bets made by Wallstreet.”

    Virtually 100% of the housing crisis is the fault of the United States Congress. They created and nurtured Fannie Mae. Had they not done so, the housing bubble absolutely, positively could not have occurred. I am not even going to blame this on Democrats or Republicans. They share the blame. They fostered the fiction that the government could guarantee an unlimited number of bad loans and everything would be fine. The consciously decided that inability to make monthly payments should not mean you cannot qualify for a mortgage. They consciously decided that welfare payments should be counted as income when qualifying for a mortgage. They consciously created laws mandating quotas for low income, high risk loans. They purposefully poured imaginary money into the real estate market creating the price bubble. They propagated the fiction that the mortgages were “guaranteed” by the government and therefore AAA quality… right up to the point they defaulted. This crisis could not have happened without the conscious, purposeful efforts of both parties of the United States Congress.

    This isn’t a failure of free markets. Not even close. This is the opposite. This is a failure of the Congress and the entire government. This is a failure of the representative government that allowed people to attempt to vote themselves largess from nothing. If the market would have not been short circuited by the Congress, this crisis would not – could not – have happened. This was absolutely, positively a failure caused by the government interfering in the markets in the arrogant belief that they know better. The bailout wasn’t to save Wall Street, the bailout was to save our foolish selves from the government we elected.

    “I think we need better manufacturing jobs in this country and tariffs on imports to incentivize domestic production.”

    Repeat after me: trade wars are bad for everybody. If restricting trade across peaceful borders was good for the economy, we would put trade restrictions in place between the states. If it doesn’t make sense to restrict trade between Ohio and Indiana, it doesn’t make sense to restrict trade between Ohio and Ontario.

    The imposition of trade restrictions causes a net loss to society because the losses from trade restrictions are larger than the gains from trade restrictions. Free trade creates winners and losers, but theory and empirical evidence show that the size of the winnings from free trade are larger than the losses.

    “But there is something to be said about the intrinsic market value of that jello and the ping pong balls. It inflates GDP sure, but it also creates jobs which generates purchasing power in the United States, and that stimulates growth, yes?”

    No. That is the broken window fallacy. It was proved a fallacy over a century and half ago by Frédéric Bastiat.

    http://therealrevo.com/blog/?p=4783

    If filling the Grand Canyon stimulated the economy by increasing the velocity of money and by putting Jello makers to work, the answer to recessions would be to fill the whole country with Jello at government expense. It wouldn’t work, of course, because there is no demand for states filled with Jello. The expense would displace other spending for things that are actually in demand. In any case, why bother with the Jello at all? If creating work is the goal, you wouldn’t actually have to go to the trouble of filling the Grand Canyon with Jello. The government could just pay tens of thousands of Americans to pantomime the motions and activities associated with filling the Grand Canyon. Of course the pantomime isn’t necessary either. They could just drop the money from helicopters.

    It doesn’t work that way.

    “…or is that a classic Keynesian fallacy?”

    No, it isn’t Keynesian. John Maynard Keynes said stimulus was to mitigate what he called “liquidity traps.” He never expected government spending to drive the economy forever. Keynes called for contractionary economic policies during booms. Keynes’ contracyclical economic theory called for increasing aggregate demand in recessions and decreasing aggregate demand in overheated expansions. We haven’t even been in a recession since 2009. Furthermore, Keynes said stimulus should be paid out of savings. He didn’t say borrow until the debt service debauches the currency and undermines the economy. He also said not to rely on this sort of stimulus nonsense for long. It is an emergency tactic to use when the economy is collapsing and liquidity is trapped. It isn’t just business as usual. Keynes wouldn’t be calling for stimulus now.

    “But…regulations, which I think should be called “protections,” seem to emerge from instances of gross negligence in our country’s history.”

    The gross negligence of the last decade has been of the government. Who will regulate Obama?

    “but would you send your son of to work for a mining company that could in no way be held responsible for cave-ins and explosions? “

    Please don’t set up straw men. No one here is calling for a world without basic regulations.

    “I think that saving GM was good for the economy, and I think anyone would be hard-pressed to deny that,”

    I will deny the hell out of it.

    What was good about it? The government propped up $33 IPO that is now trading or $20? The blatant theft of bond holder funds? The use of tax payer funds to prop up a failed business plan at the expense of its successful competitors? The Administration directed firing of thousands of dealership employees? The Administration directed termination of the pensions of 20,000 salaried retirees at the Delphi auto parts manufacturing company? The loss of billions of tax payer funds? The creation of a zombie company that survives only through government economic voodoo? The massive transfer of wealth to Obama’s union allies? The abortion of a thousand healthy start-ups that would have been formed and forged in the fires of creative destruction?

    There is still $23.6 billion sunk in GM. That is $23.6 billion that was taken away from other uses in the economy and used to prop up business plans that were proved failures. That is $23.6 billion that cannot be invested in business plans that could and would succeed. That is $23.6 billion used to give favored businesses an unfair advantage against Ford Motor Company. That is $23.6 billion that will choke off funding to thousands of other businesses effectively strangling them in the cradle. That is $23.6 billion used to create a zombie corporation raised from the dead but not made healthy. That is $23.6 billion used to undermine creative destruction, the engine of growth in modern capitalism. That is $23.6 billion of your money used by the Administration to reward favored constituencies and punish those who are not favored. That is $23.6 billion of venture socialism.

    It is a disaster.

    “And I don’t want a government to be my “care-taker,” per se, but it has evolved into that over the past 200 years in an attempt to eliminate injustices and ensure a level playing field for most people, and it took until the 1960s to get as close as we’ve come today.”

    The government hasn’t leveled the playing field the least little bit. It has sloped it in favor of its constituencies. It creates winners and loser (mostly it picks losers) and it makes rules that are neither fair nor level.

    In a perfect world, there would be no need for government. We would be born free, live our lives free and die free without being dominated by others. Sadly, the human condition precludes this. Human beings are, by and large, selfish depraved creatures who will raid, kill and steal from each other and, throughout history, have. This has caused humans to band into villages, tribes, kingdoms and nation states for mutual protection from attacks from others. This is the basis for the social compact that is government. As in the case of the polio vaccine, it would be a better world were government unnecessary. That world does not exist so we have government.

    The government of today, however, has gone far beyond the entreaties of the Founders to “establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity.” It has become a massive Leviathan that, through millions of pages of laws, hundreds of thousands of pages of tax law, millions of swarming bureaucrats, has worked its way into the most basic and intimate aspect of every citizens’ life.

    Thomas Jefferson wrote that “Experience has shown that, even under the best forms of government, those entrusted with power have, in time and in operations, perverted it into tyranny.” Sadly, our current government has been thus perverted.

    Today we are soothed by celebrity politicians who are securing huge fortunes as public servants who assure us that happiness and self actualization can be attained only by handing over increasing shares of our property, wealth and freedoms to them to manage on our behalf. They will smooth off the rough edges of life, pad the hard corners of existence and make life better while we are allowed to pursue a dignified life devoid of care or worries. In other words, we are a flock of timid and industrious animals asking for a little more veterinary care – please – from our shepherd.

    There isn’t a single member of Obama’s cabinet who has ever started or run a business, met a payroll, created and marketed a product created wealth. They are lawyers, teachers, military members and career bureaucrats. In other words, they are people who have lived their lives in the expense column funded by those who actually create the wealth that is the source of our comfort, health, welfare and ease.

    These are the masters we have elected to hold our leashes. Thees are the shepherds of administrative despotism. In these masters and their cohorts in the Leviathan, we have concentrated all the powers of massive, intrusive government. We tell ourselves that they answer to us but this is the self-imposed delusion of democratic despotism: we have submitted.

    I want no part of it. I will live free.

  49. Judd says:

    Well this is a brilliant bit of exposition. I want to sit on this a bit and ponder it deeply.

    I didn’t really think that there was a demand for Jello. But if you might indulge me, give me your idea of what you might think of something like high speed rail. A lot of people say that investing in infrastructure is a good way to create jobs. Is there demand? I think I’d like one, personally.

    On regulation:

    I wasn’t trying to make a straw man argument with the lame mine-worker example. But what if a private company wanted to make a high speed train, with no government investment. How do you hold that company accountable for not making a 200 MPH death trap? Obviously the company wants to minimize the possibility of that, but maybe they’re ordering parts from the lowest bidder in some slave-labor country, and how do we hold them accountable when they train falls into the Grand Canyon and there’s no Jello to cushion the fall? (sorry, couldn’t resist, and yes I am taking this all seriously.)

    You’ve done a fine job of eloquently deconstructing a number of my ideas, and I am fine with that, but am I making any sense with any of it at all? I’m not so insecure that I need to know if I’m scoring any points, but am I dealing with people who think I’m just absolutely wrong on all counts?

    This has obviously become so protracted that there is no hope of me even trying to question all of it, and needless to say I am open to all lines of thinking if the facts add up, so like I said, I’m going to brood on this for a few days, and maybe come back and browse some other posts for new/continued discussion. Thanks again.

  50. Locke n Load says:

    Uhhhh, RD, I thought it was MY job to go long winded and high falutin?
    Heheheh, nicely done tho.

    Judd, please, carefully consider what RD just laid out. I can see there are a lot of gaps in your understanding about causation and the timeline/regulations/speculative incentive. You should remember ONE thing when you run all this around in your head (besides the fact that thats a LOT of information to try and absorb), the Feds are MANDATED to produce excess dollars thru a mechanism built around the dollar peg. Because so much money is needed in world trade to accomplish this, the USG needs to print cash (bond sales) to keep liquidity and the velocity of money up. That means we have a genetic predisposition to debt, but ONLY to the amount of excess trade and investment the world economy demands of us whiuch is best measured by our trade imbalances.

    In domestic terms, this means the USG effectively MANDATED banks create ways to keep the money flows going. The CRA acted like gasoline on a fire. Banks HAD to find new investment vehicles for the inflows and the loans they were legally bound to write. Yes btw, I said legally. Both Carter and Clinton administrations leveraged racism and lawsuits to their advantage thereby forcing the money flows into exotic vehicles.

    Understand this because it is of CRITICAL importance: the feds warped the markets in such a way as to put themselves in a position to render judgement. Money would NEVER have had to move like it did without the Feds manipulations and threats. Blaming the bankers for creating CDOs that piled up risk is like blaming shovel makers for causing piles of snow at the end of your driveway after a blizzard. That money/snow had to go SOMEWHERE. Was there a lack of regulation? Perhaps. Mark to market should always be applied to any derivative, but honestly, do you believe the same folks who don’t understand the laws of unintended consequences even understand what a derivative actually is?
    Do you?
    Ever heard of rehypothication? Its another Fed bubble that can’t be popped and I dare you to ask ANYONE you know if they’ve ever heard of it or can explain the concept.
    And you expect the feds to be able to get it? lol
    They cause these problems by FEELING, not THINKING. They seek to rub raw the social scars in order to create demands from their constituents …which they then get to solve.
    Look up the Tammany Hall method of divide and conquer politics. Its Chicago style and now American Left dogma.

  51. Locke n Load says:

    And Judd, you aren’t muddling up too badly,lol. Whats happening is you’re breaking free of the MEME game and trying to use reason based on your otherwise falacious (but government fed) logic. Its a painful process, yes. But you’re doing fine and none of us is laughing at you.

    When you’ve spent a while here trying to counter argue you’ll begin to realize something we ALL have at some point. Most of the world doesn’t actually think, they just assemble memes like some giant jigsaw puzzle. And when the picture comes into focus it seems like original thought…but it isn’t. Its programming, manipulation by people who honestly think you’re stupid, asleep, and likely incapable of understanding the con.
    Yeah, escaping it is uncomfortable at times but it’s worth it in the end. You get to watch the whole show and smile in bemusement. Its better to be free than taken for granted, trust me.
    Keep it up, you’ll see

  52. Locke n Load says:

    Btw Judd,

    And I don’t want a government to be my “care-taker,” per se, but it has evolved into that over the past 200 years in an attempt to eliminate injustices and ensure a level playing field for most people

    hehehe
    Uhhhh, no. Only the last 100 years or so and that whole ‘level the playing field’ thing is a Social Justice construct, a Marxist meme. It originates from the Manifesto as does much of the language the press, and indeed America today, relies upon for economic discussion.

    I don’t fault you for this problem. I don’t think you could have come up with it on your own actually. it had to be fed to you through public education and newspeak outlets like the Progressive press. Its being bred into us, indoctrinated since birth. Few even realize it as anything more than ‘rebellion’ against what they knew as kids.

    And thats the point sir. You knew the truth about ‘fair’ and ‘just’ by the time you were 12, you just had people telling you were wrong the whole time. By the time you understood the value of your work and the idea of merit you already had a working understanding of the simple phrase ‘life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness’.
    It had to be wrung out of you, twisted into something different, rebellious, and new. That’s what counterculture does, and the press is nothing if not the spawn of the counterculture left.

    When you finally understand the POV of this site, you’ll understand WE’RE the rebels, we’re the true heirs of the Revolution, the emancipation, and capitalism. Its a VERY sad state of affairs that America almost doesn’t understand that any more. We’re not radicals or tinfoil hatters, we’re simply the truth tellers, the towncriers, the Thomas Paines of our age.

  53. notamobster says:

    Thomas Paine died alone & penniless. Just sayin’.

  54. R.D. Walker says:

    This thread continues here.

    http://therealrevo.com/blog/?p=89465